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Icon_missing_medium
May 17, 2015 2:51am
46 posts

It was working fine though. So I don't understand the difference. I've added all the e_ data now and everything seems exactly the same as it was before I added it.

 
Icon_missing_medium
May 17, 2015 9:34pm
46 posts

Well If I can't edit the existing gadgets or create my own. Could you make a Totals by Period gadget that displays kWh and Cost instead of kWh and Carbon?

 
Tony1_medium
May 18, 2015 3:32pm
169 posts

I posted a question on the Brultech forum about the e_ data not being sent via the GEM. See link below.

I know that you wrote "It was working fine though. So I don't understand the difference. I've added all the e_ data now and everything seems exactly the same as it was before I added it." I can't really say that the data that you have is accurate. In addition if you add any new loads for monitoring you will contiune to do more work than you need to do to get it into SEG. Discovery will automatically do all the manual tasks that you're doing now. Please go to the Brultech forum and supply the info to them that is being asked. It seems to me that something is not working correctly so the accuracy of the data may be in question.

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.brultech.com/home/community/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1347&sid=b08ee55cf28391c8a9798c4e0592ecce&p=8202#p8202

 
Icon_missing_medium
May 18, 2015 3:53pm
46 posts

I said this earlier, you may have missed it: I logged into the GEM Setup website and changed the packet to "Also Send Current Values" and now the GEM is sending p_, e_, and a_ data in the packet. I re-discovered and it added them all and kept all my settings for the ones I already added. All is well. I still have a few questions though.

 

1. The one only Sam can answer is about creating gadgets.

2. Now that I am also receiving a_ data, what can I actually do with this? What can I use it for? I use p_ to track real time usage, I use e_ to track usage over time. So what can I use a_ for?

3. When I use my electric stove or my dryer I see the usage via my mains, but I don't see any usage on their circuits though. They both use Dual Pole breakers, they're the only ones I have problems with. Did I maybe put them on wrong or something? I put them both on in the same orientation and attached both CT's into the same holes.

 
Tony1_medium
May 18, 2015 5:04pm
169 posts

Yes I did misunderstand what we had said, you showed the GEM packet trace that did not have the e_  values, I assumed that you when you said "I've selected include current in packet" that is was done prior to the trace that you posted. I'm glad that is resolved.

As for your last question, for your 2 pole loads are you using a CT of each leg ( Two CT's per 2 pole single breaker)? Is the dryer and stove on the same channel in the GEM?

The second question: "Now that I am also receiving a_ data, what can I actually do with this? What can I use it for? I use p_ to track real time usage, I use e_ to track usage over time. So what can I use a_ for". Amperage is a nice to have, I use a_ to see the amperage draw on inductive type of loads such as my pool pump. I also use in when I'm on my backup generator. Below is a brief explanation of "reactive power"

Reactive Power can best be described as the quantity of “unused” power that is developed by reactive components, such as inductors or capacitors in an AC circuit or system. In a DC circuit, the product of “volts x amps” gives the power consumed in watts by the circuit. However, while this formula is also true for purely resistive AC circuits, the situation is slightly more complex in an AC circuits containing reactive components as this volt-amp product can change with frequency.

In an AC circuit, the product of voltage and current is expressed as volt-amperes (VA) or kilo volt-amperes (kVA) and is known as Apparent power. In a non-inductive purely resistive circuit such as heaters, irons, kettles and filament bulbs, etc. their reactance is practically zero, and the impedance of the circuit is composed almost entirely of just resistance.

For an AC resistive circuit, the current and voltage are in-phase and the power at any instant can be found by multiplying the voltage by the current at that instant, and because of this “in-phase” relationship, the rms values can be used to find the equivalent DC power or heating effect.

However, if the circuit contains reactive components, the voltage and current waveforms will be “out-of-phase” by some amount determined by the circuits phase angle. If the phase angle between the voltage and the current is at its maximum of 90o, the volt-amp product will have equal positive and negative values.

In other words, the reactive circuit returns as much power to the supply as it consumes resulting in the average power consumed by the circuit being zero, as the same amount of energy keeps flowing alternately from source to the load and back from load to source. On the Brultech site they have a good write-up on this.

 

 
Icon_missing_medium
May 18, 2015 5:32pm
46 posts

Ok, for the first part:

Both the range and the dryer have their own GEM Channel. Each of them is dual pole. Each leg has its own CT. each leg is combined and in slot 2 and 3 on the GEM channel.

 

For the sake of ease of understanding, lets pretend I only have 1 dual pole breaker. In this case I have a CT on both legs of the dual pole breaker, then I combined the positive leads and put them into slot 2 in the GEM channel, then I combined the negative leads and put them in slot 3 in the GEM channel. Both CT's are on the leg in the same orientation.

 

Now in the case of the dryer circuit, It uses 3000+watts, but when I used the dryer last night it only shows 250 watts of usage.

 

As for the Range, I'm sure it uses 1300+, but when I use it, it shows 4 watts of usage, which is what is always shown 100% of the time. I assume this 4 watts is the clock built into the stovetop.

 

Now for the second part of your post. I have never clearly understood electricity. I am a network engineer and a programmer, but I just can't grasp electricity. I've asked about it many times throughout my life and no one has ever been able to explain it to me. With that said, I didn't understand anything you said about a_ data. So my question will be Would it benefit me if I used a_ data to track my hottub? and what gadget would I use to do that with a_ data? Would it benefit me for any other common appliances?

 

Thanks for all the info, I appreciate the help.

 
Tony1_medium
May 18, 2015 6:59pm
169 posts

Ok let resolve issue one, since you have two ct's on a 2 pole breaker you need to reverse the pair of wires that comes from one CT. It's easier to move the CT wires instead of flipping the CT in the breaker panel.  Identify the two wires that come off of a single CT, it doesn't matter which CT, you only have to do this for one CT.  Remove the black and white wire from that single CT from the GEM. Take the white wire from the single CT (the one that you removed from the GEM) and put the white wire in the same "hole" as the black wire from the other CT, now do the same with the black wire insert that in the same "hole" that the white wire is from the other CT is in. When done you should have a black wire from one CT and a white wire from the other CT in the same hole.

 

You have a Single Split Phase service in your home (220 or 240 volts), 120 / 240 VAC Single Split Phase System, the 120 / 240 VAC power consists of two 120 VAC lines,. Hot L1 (Phase A, Red wire) and Hot L2 (Phase B, Black wire) that are 180 degrees out of phase with respect to the center tapped, grounded Neutral (White wire). What was happing with your CT's since they are on two different 110/120 volt circuit, they are canceling each other out when you turn your stove or dryer on. One is producing a negative number and the other is producing a positive number.  

As for you question on gadgets most any of the gadgets can display amps,  Some gadgets/widgets will default to power but you can change this by unchecking the "filter streams by Watts" just under the "title;" and "notes:" this is shown when you select a widget to add. This will show all your P_ ,E_, and other ones. 

As for using amps widgets it's up to you, for your hot tub you will probably see a higher amperage draw then the actual wattage being consumed. You might see a 15 amp (this would equate to 1500 watts) draw but using only 1000 watts which equates to 10 amps. This would show a reactive load. 

In a non commercial application (billing) you do not pay for reactive loads.

 

 

 
Icon_missing_medium
May 18, 2015 7:13pm
46 posts

Ah, yes I assumed this was the problem. I didn't know why, but I had to switch the polarity on one of my mains as well because it was displaying wrong. I was going to try that on the dual pole breakers when I got home today just to try it. Thanks to you I now know it is the reason and I don't have to worry about figuring it out anymore.

 

So for a residential account I won't be billed for the reactive load, so there's essentially no point in me monitoring it since my goal is to monitor consumption vs cost. I am trying to get my bill to $20. It's currently $30. This is without my solar system producing any energy (i'm still waiting for the slow people at the county to grant my permit so my electric company can allow me to flip my disconnect on). At that point I should be making $30 a month.

Thanks again, I really appreciate all the information. I think I have everything I need now.

 
Tony1_medium
May 18, 2015 7:40pm
169 posts

Can I ask a question, what is your electrical company charging you per KWH including tax and all the stuff they add on (total bill divided by KWH)? Also does your electric company do net metering?

 
Icon_missing_medium
May 18, 2015 7:55pm
46 posts

My electric company was charging $0.05 per kWh, however, I recently purchased a new house and it is 1 house outside of that electric companies area of operation. So my new electric company is charging me $0.10 per kWh. Due to my bill essentially doubling, I've been forced to become even more effecient than I already was. The problem arose when I learned that this electric company is from the stone age and doesn't have an online presence. They have no way to pay online or automatically which is extremely inconvenient for me. They also have no way to track usage and have never heard of smart meters, so I cannot monitor my usage and be efficient. So to fix the first problem, I had solar panels installed on my roof so that I don't have a bill to pay anymore. To solve the second problem I purchased a GEM. They are required by law to provide net metering. However, I am the first person ever to do it with their company and they were baffled when I submitted my distributed generation application. They had no idea what to do with it. Everything is done now though. I'm just waiting for the county to grant me my permit before I can turn on the panels.

 

Another question: Some of my circuits that have nothing running on them show 1-4 watts of use, while other circuits i'm not using show 0. Is that power actually going somewhere or is that due to the fact that I bought the less accurate m40's? Even my solar circuit shows 2 watts of use and the breaker and disconnect to the solar panels are in the off position.

 
Tony1_medium
May 19, 2015 12:50am
169 posts

It's possible that it could be the CT but more likely it is noise. Shoot over to the Brultech forum, look in the projects forum you will see a thread titled my gem, isy, dash box, insteon home automation install. The link is below, a member named Teken did the write-up, some of the screen shots might be outdated because of firmware upgrades and enhancement made over the past couple of years. But at the bottom of page 5 he talks about what you are seeing and some resolutions to fix it. http://www.brultech.com/community/viewtopic.php...

 
Icon_missing_medium
May 19, 2015 12:49pm
46 posts

Thanks, this was helpful. I didn't apply any jumpers because he states that there are problems with it if you add too many and I have about 24 channels that are reading 1-4 watts when not in use. Any idea if these issues were ever fixed by Brultech?

 
Tony1_medium
May 19, 2015 3:34pm
169 posts

They have a draft doc that might be helpful to resolve your issue (see like below) since you're saying that you have 24 channels that this is occurring on. It looks like this will help.

 

 

http://brultech.com/community/viewtopic.php?f=2...

 
Icon_missing_medium
May 19, 2015 4:50pm
46 posts

Topic does not exist

 
Tony1_medium
May 19, 2015 5:00pm
169 posts

try it again, it will be in the first post

 

<table class="tablebg" width="100%" cellspacing="1"> <tbody> <tr> <td class="row2"> Setting GEM Offse draftt.pdf [229.67 KiB] 
Downloaded 21 times </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>

 

 
Icon_missing_medium
May 19, 2015 6:26pm
46 posts

Alright I got in, funny enough I am actually already using the offset to compensate. Thanks though.

 
Lights_2_medium
May 19, 2015 7:14pm
156 posts

Hello Grimshad,

I wanted to clarify for you that many elements in the install thread are quite dated. But the bulk of the information is still valid and true today. Having said this you should not have any issues placing jumper wires into channel 1&2 for any and all channels per Brultech feed back.

Please also note before you even start down this path there are several *fine tuning* steps that will allow you to obtain more accuracy and reduce (visable) display power drift.

1. Using a True RMS DMM (digital multi-meter) measure the line voltage where the PT transformer is plugged into. Watch and measure this outlet and record the values on a piece of paper. You can then go into the GEM's set up page and adjust the PT Settings and watch in live data page what the voltage is when compared to the DMM.

2. CT Fine Tuning: This thread outlines what you can do to verify if adjustments need to be done and how so. http://www.brultech.com/home/community/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1181

3. Jumpers: As indicated above once options one and two have been done you can certainly add jumpers to any channel that may be impacted by noise etc.

4. The last option is adjusting the current per the users manual supplied earlier. Please note this option must be followed exactly as outlined and impacts the system on a global scale so great care must be applied.

Please post any questions here or ideally in the Brultech forum(s) for quicker replies and response.

 

 

 

 
Icon_missing_medium
May 19, 2015 10:11pm
46 posts

Hey Teken,

 

 Thanks for the info. My meter measures the PT outlet at 123.9V,  GEM is reporting 121.6-121.8 in the Channel Option tab. I see no way to offset the value and the only options are PT Type and PT Range. The link in your post didn't really help in this regard. 

 

On a side note:

I received a e-mail today telling me my GEM went missing from SEG. It wasn't sending any packets. After troubleshooting it for about 6 hours, I concluded that there was nothing wrong with the network. The GEM was still up and operational, but not sending any packets. I logged into the communications web interface and told it to reboot and it started working again. Any idea what caused this? because I just lost 6 hours of data.

 

As

 
Lights_2_medium
May 19, 2015 11:01pm
156 posts

Hello,

You will adjust the PT Type up or down until the GEM matches the DMM. Selecting *Refresh Voltage* will let you see if the changes you made are going up or down.

What method are you using to communicate to SEG? Via tethered Ethernet or WiFi?

 
Icon_missing_medium
May 20, 2015 12:57am
46 posts

I've changed it so the voltage matches. It didnt seem to change anything on the wattage variation though. until i get some wire to make jumpers, i'm setting the offsets to aprox -2.0

 

It seems the circuit my solar panels are on is special though. it's saying i'm using anywhere between 2-5 watts, but the breaker and disconnect for the circuit is off. Why is this?

 
Lights_2_medium
May 20, 2015 2:48am
156 posts

More than likely there is noise being picked up so you can place the jumper on any of the channels and see. Make sure the GEM is powered down and unplugged before you insert any jumpers.

While you're waiting for wire you can also adjust each CT per the link I provided above.

 

 
Icon_missing_medium
May 20, 2015 11:40am
46 posts

After the GEM stopped sending packets and rebooting it. I noticed it is no longer sending e_ data again. I checked all the settings and they are still the same, I can't figure out what's wrong.

 
Lights_2_medium
May 20, 2015 12:50pm
156 posts

What is the COM/Engine firmware you're running? Go back into the setup page toggle the option you enabled and select save. Once saved select reboot COM & Engine one at a time. Ensure you let each process compete.

Once that is done go back and double check the API trace and compare to the GEM and verify its being sent.

 
Icon_missing_medium
May 20, 2015 2:17pm
46 posts

Ok I just checked. This is what the GEM is sending: it includes e_ data. SEG Also Discovers all of the p_, e_, and a_ data channels when I do discovery.

 

(site 9f1cd2ff23e5dda (node GEM ? (e_1 .11)(p_1 5)(a_1 .14)(e_2 .03)(p_2 1)(a_2 0.02)(e_3 .07)(p_3 3)(a_3 0.08)(e_4 1.31)(p_4 0)(a_4 .10)(e_5 .06)(p_5 2)(a_5 .10)(e_6 27.95)(p_6 1284)(a_6 10.64)(e_7 .10)(p_7 4)(a_7 0.02)(e_8 .04)(p_8 1)(a_8 .10)(e_9 .47)(p_9 21)(a_9 .26)(e_10 .06)(p_10 3)(a_10 0.02)(e_11 .14)(p_11 6)(a_11 0.06)(e_12 .08)(p_12 3)(a_12 .12)(e_13 .06)(p_13 2)(a_13 0.08)(e_14 2.81)(p_14 130)(a_14 1.42)(e_15 .04)(p_15 1)(a_15 0.02)(e_16 1.40)(p_16 65)(a_16 .58)(e_17 .37)(p_17 16)(a_17 .32)(e_18 .02)(p_18 0)(a_18 0.02)(e_19 .04)(p_19 1)(a_19 0.02)(e_20 .02)(p_20 0)(a_20 0.06)(e_21 .05)(p_21 1)(a_21 0.06)(e_22 1.38)(p_22 62)(a_22 .72)(e_23 .12)(p_23 5)(a_23 0.02)(e_32 36.03)(p_32 1604)(a_32 13.30)(voltage 123.7))) 

 

This is what SEG is reporting in the trace: No e_ data listed.

 

(site 9f1cd2ff23e5dda (node GEM ? (p_1 6)(a_1 .16)(p_2 1)(a_2 0.02)(p_3 2)(a_3 0.08)(p_4 1)(a_4 0.06)(p_5 2)(a_5 .10)(p_6 26)(a_6 .52)(p_7 4)(a_7 0.02)(p_8 1)(a_8 .10)(p_9 21)(a_9 .26)(p_10 3)(a_10 0.02)(p_11 6)(a_11 0.06)(p_12 4)(a_12 .12)(p_13 2)(a_13 .10)(p_14 619)(a_14 5.10)(p_15 2)(a_15 0.02)(p_16 63)(a_16 .56)(p_17 16)(a_17 .24)(p_18 0)(a_18 0.02)(p_19 2)(a_19 0.02)(p_20 0)(a_20 0.06)(p_21 1)(a_21 0.06)(p_22 61)(a_22 .70)(p_23 4)(a_23 0.02)(p_32 837)(a_32 6.86)(voltage 123.0)))
 
Response: 
(status ok)
 
 
 
After monitoring it for a while, I noticed. Every 4th packet in the trace contains the e_data:
 
Request: 
(site 9f1cd2ff23e5dda (node GEM ? (e_1 .09)(p_1 5)(a_1 .16)(e_2 .02)(p_2 1)(a_2 0.02)(e_3 .05)(p_3 3)(a_3 0.08)(e_4 .60)(p_4 0)(a_4 0.08)(e_5 .04)(p_5 2)(a_5 .10)(e_6 .45)(p_6 27)(a_6 .52)(e_7 .07)(p_7 4)(a_7 0.02)(e_8 .03)(p_8 2)(a_8 .10)(e_9 .36)(p_9 21)(a_9 .28)(e_10 .06)(p_10 3)(a_10 0.02)(e_11 .10)(p_11 5)(a_11 0.06)(e_12 .06)(p_12 3)(a_12 .12)(e_13 .05)(p_13 2)(a_13 0.08)(e_14 2.69)(p_14 161)(a_14 1.64)(e_15 .03)(p_15 2)(a_15 0.02)(e_16 1.53)(p_16 92)(a_16 .90)(e_17 .27)(p_17 15)(a_17 .24)(e_18 .01)(p_18 0)(a_18 0.02)(e_19 .03)(p_19 2)(a_19 0.02)(e_20 .01)(p_20 1)(a_20 0.06)(e_21 .03)(p_21 2)(a_21 0.06)(e_22 .60)(p_22 35)(a_22 .46)(e_23 .08)(p_23 5)(a_23 0.02)(e_32 7.52)(p_32 383)(a_32 3.22)(voltage 123.6)))
 
Response: 
(status ok)
 
 
 
Lights_2_medium
May 20, 2015 5:11pm
156 posts

I think there is something wrong with the SEG as my KWH (Energy) also stopped operating and my system is sending all the required data.

I think its another service issue because I had a few alerts the SEG was down for about a minute interval for the last few days.

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